David Sutkin | What 350 Basses Taught Me About Craft, Collecting & the World's Best Luthiers

This episode was filmed live on location in Tuscany, where we sat down with David Sutkin, founder of Bass UpFront. A global community of more than 36.000 bass players, builders, collectors, people who care deeply about the instrument.

David is known for his remarkable collection, the Bass UpFront studio and the conversation he's held built around bass culture. He brings a player's ear, a collector's eye, and a deep respect for the people who dedicate their lives to making the instruments. 

We've discussed many things. The guitar's potential as functional art, the pull between utility and beauty, the value of imperfection in music, the relationships that form between players and builders, and even market demand and valuations.

I thoroughly enjoyed my conversation with David Sutkin, and I hope that you do as much as I did.​

Watch the video version on YouTube:
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Learn more about Life With Strings Attached, Boutique Guitar Showcase, and Jamie Gale's work in the guitar industry:
🔗 Boutique Guitar Showcase
🔗 Jamie Gale

Thank you for listening and supporting the ongoing conversation between music, makers, history and the future.

Transcript

[01:00:00:00 - 01:00:18:07]
 Say that I got turned on by Stradi because I saw Marek, and I don't know if Marek likes me posting pictures of it. It was his 11th base he ever made. And it was on reverb for $1,100, and someone had tied a rope, almost like a boat,

[01:00:19:11 - 01:00:42:16]
 like a big thick knotted rope to it to hang it on the wall, like a piece of art. And then it was $1,000. And then he took the piece of rope off and he put it back on sale, and I was gonna buy it. And he put it back on sale for $1,500, like two days later, and I bought it. Yes. And that's what turned me on to going to his website

[01:00:43:16 - 01:01:02:10]
 and saying, "Holy shit, look what this guy builds today. Look at these symphony bases." The guy literally made a metaphorical image of giving you enough rope to hang yourself. Ah, well done. And then two days later. Touche, well done. That's fantastic. And two days later, he took it off. That's the brilliant one I've met is.

[01:01:04:09 - 01:01:34:12]
 But I like going on there, and going on reverb, and finding these instruments, and then going to the website of the builder and seeing what they're actually making today also. And what is the price difference between what's being charged, of course used, and new. And if it's not that much different, I'd rather buy a new one, reach out to the builder. A, to make a relationship. B, to build something to my specs.

[01:01:35:14 - 01:02:07:19]
 Because for $400 or $500 difference, I don't want to buy someone else's when I can have it built to my specifications. And as a new friend to have in the industry, I just really like, not all, because we know some luthies that are at the end. You're an asshole with yours too. Yes, yes. (Laughing) Just like that. Everyone's got their share of assholes. Yes. But they just happen to get along very well with luthies because I really appreciate people who create.

[01:02:09:06 - 01:02:26:18]
 Welcome to Life with Strings Attached. I'm your host, Jamie Gale. This episode was filmed live on location in Tuscany, where we sat down with David Sutkin, founder of Bass UpFront. A global community of more than 36,000 bass players, builders, collectors, people who care deeply about the instrument.

[01:02:27:22 - 01:02:54:28]
 David is known for his remarkable collection, the bass up front studio, and the conversation he's held built around bass culture. He brings a player's ear, a collector's eye, and a deep respect for the people who dedicate their lives to making the instruments. We've discussed many things. The guitarist potential as functional art, the pull between utility and beauty, the value of imperfection in music, the relationships that form between players and builders, and even market demand and valuations.

[01:02:56:13 - 01:03:01:16]
 I thoroughly enjoyed my conversation with David Sutkin, and I hope that you do as much as I did.

[01:03:04:20 - 01:03:38:00]
 I don't really use the word boutique. It generally doesn't come into my mind when I'm looking at a certain object, "Oh, this is boutique and rare, so I have to get it." I'm not saying that there aren't cases where I'm on a hunt for a certain particular bass guitar, because it's rare and it's in a limited edition, but it doesn't necessarily have to be boutique to me. In many cases, it turns out to be boutique, but that's not my sole intention. My sole intention is this is a beautiful piece of art.

[01:03:39:02 - 01:03:55:25]
 Let's hear how it sounds, because my true intention is to play it and love its tonality. I'm not just about the aesthetics of the instrument. It does play a big part of it, but if it does not sound to my ears pleasing,

[01:03:58:01 - 01:04:06:11]
 then I'll pass on it. So it has to be, it's functional art, if you will. It's still art to me, but it needs to be functional.

[01:04:08:10 - 01:04:24:01]
 All right, so I mean, functional and art is a problem in the art world, and in your country's tariff code, actually. There's a famous case, Brancusi versus the United States, that's almost 100 years old now, 1926, 27,

[01:04:25:16 - 01:04:29:06]
 where they had to redefine sculptural art,

[01:04:30:20 - 01:04:55:25]
 because the art world had moved past what the current understanding was. Up until then, the understanding of sculptural art was, it mimicked real life. So it had to look like a person, a deer, a horse, a banana. You know? But the point is, it was your ability to craft an object that looked like another existing thing, and as abstraction sort of came into the art world,

[01:04:57:05 - 01:05:08:03]
 partly because technology captured the real thing already. With cameras, artists started to express feelings and ideas, concepts more than trying to recreate still life.

[01:05:09:15 - 01:05:15:14]
 But in the US, tariff code, art has no tariffs on it,

[01:05:17:03 - 01:06:11:00]
 but there's a definition there that says, it basically can't be useful. If it has a utility, then we tariff it different. We tax it different. And I don't really know whether this is the chicken or the egg, whether the tariff code needs to distinguish it separately, because it's useful, we then have to tariff it, or whether it's this was a utility before we considered it an art, so it still has a tariff, you know? It's one or the other. Yes, yes. But it's a question that baffles sort of people in the art world. And so you're not the first collector I've talked to that thinks of these things as art objects, but also useful art objects. Yes. But so far, at least the high-end art world rejects the idea of usefulness. I've been playing with this continuum of, at what point in time does it become too useful to be art, or useless enough to be art? Yes.

[01:06:12:02 - 01:06:14:29]
 (Laughs) I mean, I think of Jens, I think of Jens Ritter.

[01:06:16:04 - 01:06:42:01]
 And would I play one of his basses, I own a few, would I bring it up on stage and play it? I enjoy the tone, the tonality of the instrument. I appreciate everything about the instrument. But to me, it's more of a piece of art in my collection that I enjoy pulling down or playing. Or if I have guests over,

[01:06:43:19 - 01:06:53:19]
 just like I would hang a Rembrandt, if I would have an own one, I like the visualization of it being on the wall.

[01:06:54:25 - 01:06:57:26]
 Is it useful to me in a gigging situation?

[01:06:58:27 - 01:07:13:07]
 Not necessarily, it seems somewhat pretentious. But then again, I have to think 99% of the people in the audience have no idea what I'm playing or care about what I'm playing. Is the band performing well?

[01:07:14:13 - 01:07:25:07]
 And I have to remember that also. I'm not bringing out a bass to impress. I'm bringing out a bass that's functional. But when it comes home, it's now a piece of art.

[01:07:26:16 - 01:07:31:22]
 Same thing with any other instrument that I play. I bring it out because it's a useful tool.

[01:07:32:27 - 01:07:47:16]
 But I also like the flip side of the coin that now it becomes art when it's put on the wall and displayed properly. Yeah, it's an interesting example because my bass is a Richard bass. And I played and performed with it for years.

[01:07:49:00 - 01:07:56:25]
 I think they're incredible musical instruments. And I was one of Jens' first retailers when I had a retail store many years ago in the Toronto area.

[01:07:59:04 - 01:08:11:09]
 Before he went deeply into the art world. And I remember often new musicians I was playing with, turned around, after we played a little while, what are you playing?

[01:08:12:15 - 01:08:25:18]
 That's something you never heard of, why? Why? He goes, I can hear you. I said, is that a good thing? He goes, yeah, of course. But he's not used to actually being able to understand what the bass player is doing. As so many guys have that whoop-whoop sound.

[01:08:26:24 - 01:09:06:16]
 And my Ritter bass has a couple of his triple buckers, which are humbuckers. But it's a mahogany body and neck with a padouk fretboard and pickup covers. It's a very functional, very clear musical instrument. And I played it for its functionality. Jens has that sort of 10-bolt design at his neck, which in the early days, he did an experiment. He made three basses from the same board, one with a neck through, one with a set neck, one with a bolt-on neck. And he realized a massive bolt connection would give him the sustain that he liked about the neck throughs, but the attack he liked about the bolt-on instruments.

[01:09:07:27 - 01:09:15:04]
 And later on, I understand that as a central nodal point at this point, which makes that bass perform in a very interesting way.

[01:09:17:03 - 01:09:35:07]
 I think nothing quite actually performs or sounds like a Ritter bass. I think that it's not just looks for him. Now, that said, I remember when Jens had a lot of success on those instruments. He had Bass Player magazine, put him on the front cover, Roy Five, Late Lounge, Gold Hardware,

[01:09:36:09 - 01:09:39:02]
 and he got a ton of orders for it. He came to visit me in Toronto.

[01:09:40:05 - 01:09:45:00]
 My wife and I, Jens' girlfriend at the time, were walking on the same lake, Lake Ontario.

[01:09:46:18 - 01:09:57:21]
 (Laughs) And he was just like, it was killing him to make the same thing over and over again. And so he said, "I'm gonna make a bunch of basses of whatever I want."

[01:09:59:06 - 01:10:00:26]
 And that became the Ritter-Royals,

[01:10:02:02 - 01:10:03:13]
 which is now a thing that he has.

[01:10:04:19 - 01:10:14:15]
 And I opened up an art gallery, show guitar, a sculptural art, and we flew Jens in with the first Ritter-Royals collection that was there. And that was that sort of transition point for Jens

[01:10:15:16 - 01:10:17:21]
 more directly into the art world.

[01:10:19:11 - 01:10:56:22]
 But for me, I actually went to the music master and I played his basses, and I played another very well-known bass at the time. I think it's okay that I say it now. It was Fodera, and I was trying to decide which I couldn't afford to take on everything I wanted. Yes. You know, so I was like, which line was I gonna try and represent? And it was the performance of the Ritter-Royals instruments that actually won me over. And Fodera's a great basses, but it wasn't the look for me at first. It was actually the way they played and sounded. And it's interesting when we talk to people about what it is that connects them, how they view particular things,

[01:10:59:20 - 01:11:20:13]
 context, all of that. And so you express, if I understand it correctly, an idea that we hear very often that many high-end bass makers struggle with. I've had this conversation with Mike Tobias, with Sheldon Dingwall, with Jens Ritter. All of these guys had success where they had artists playing on stage,

[01:11:21:13 - 01:11:24:23]
 but they're all backing people.

[01:11:26:04 - 01:11:47:22]
 And so Michael had a, oh my God, I'm gonna blank on his name for a second. He was playing for Shikhan, eventually played with Prince, Gospel, Andrew Boucher. Ah, one of the greatest Gospel players on the scene today. Yes, so it was Boucher. He was with Tobias now, no? Yeah, yeah, MTD. Well, MTD. Tobias is owned by Gibson. (Laughs) Okay. Michael Tobias designs.

[01:11:49:01 - 01:11:51:10]
 Yeah, and so Boucher was playing the MTD.

[01:11:53:12 - 01:12:02:07]
 Jens Ritter was making it for Josh and Cora Dunham, so they were both playing for Prince at the time, husband and wife team. She now plays for Beyonce, has for the last 10, 20 years.

[01:12:04:15 - 01:12:39:21]
 And Sheldon, I forget exactly where the problem was with the artists also, but Sheldon released the Super P and the Super J at this time. Yes. And Michael had to make something that Andrew could play on stage with Shikhan. And Jens was a Josh Dunham, and that's where the Cora bass from Jens Ritter. It looks like the Roya, but a little bit fatter towards a jazz bass. That was because of he felt the pressure of the artists saying, "Nisa looked less weird." And it was during an era where everyone was playing a jazz bass or a P bass.

[01:12:41:05 - 01:13:12:19]
 And so it's that pressure to what do I look like on stage. The musician chose it for the way it played and sounded, but the person paying the check said, "I need this to look different." And then the guitar maker either loses the artists or has to maybe compromise their vision to make something maybe somewhere in between a synthesis. You're making me think now. So I have two, I'm embarrassed to say this. I either have two Royas and a Cora or the other way around.

[01:13:13:25 - 01:13:15:23]
 First of all, you bring up Vinny Fodera,

[01:13:16:26 - 01:13:23:21]
 you're the one that's on the brand. Yeah. Big up Brooklyn. Yeah, yeah. You said big up Brooklyn, my place of origin.

[01:13:25:28 - 01:13:32:25]
 I love my Fodera Yin Yang and my Fodera, there's a particular Fodera P bass.

[01:13:34:04 - 01:13:37:14]
 I think they're very playable

[01:13:38:16 - 01:13:50:19]
 and playable in ways that most people don't expect. So generally, and I can't speak for all, but I can speak for many. They're thought of as the jazz musician's bass, not so much in the rock vein.

[01:13:51:28 - 01:14:15:20]
 I'm partial when I play live to, I'm in a three piece alternative instrumental post rock band. I don't know really what post rock means, but that word's thrown around a lot. Yeah, yeah. And the Fodera P bass will bring me the sound that I need.

[01:14:17:12 - 01:14:34:10]
 But now after this conversation, I need to spend more time with the Ritter Basses and see how they sound. I've actually only played them in a solo setting. I've never played them in a band setting. And now you've peaked my curiosity as to how they will sound. Yeah.

[01:14:35:18 - 01:15:00:09]
 But the Fodera P bass take, and the Yin Yang is a fantastic bass. I don't bring it out, and this is the point I was getting out to earlier. I don't bring it out to play it because I think people will think I'm trying to emulate Victor Wooten. How many people in the club know Victor Wooten generally? So it's all manifested in my head, but it is a spec, in my opinion.

[01:15:01:09 - 01:15:02:28]
 Because art is obviously subjective,

[01:15:04:15 - 01:15:13:29]
 whether tonally or visually. It's one of the basses that brings out inspiration. I'm not very big on tapping,

[01:15:15:07 - 01:15:17:06]
 but when I play a Fodera Yin Yang,

[01:15:18:07 - 01:15:28:16]
 it evokes me to tap it and to learn tapping and to put it into alternative tunings. It's really a wonderful instrument.

[01:15:29:19 - 01:15:43:26]
 Yeah, I like the brand a great deal. I also respect Fodera a great deal because they're out of Brooklyn. I've been to their warehouse, their shop. They pay their people a respectable wage, and they just think it's a quality product.

[01:15:45:04 - 01:16:02:04]
 And they have a somewhat reasonable price line. Again, reasonable is subjective also, but you can buy an Anthony Wellington bass, which I don't know is what, 30,000 USD right now, or you could buy a $5,000,

[01:16:05:09 - 01:16:05:26]
 precision bass.

[01:16:07:20 - 01:16:12:10]
 And I've yet to play a Wellington bass, not my particular style,

[01:16:13:20 - 01:17:24:16]
 but the Fodera P and the Yin Yang do it for me. They're great instruments. As a guitar builder and a player, you have a sense for when something's working right. That's why so many of the world's best trusted stereo, unmatched tone, perfect intonation, and strings made to the tightest tolerances in the industry. That reputation is no accident. It's the result of 400 years of being obsessed with quality and innovation. D'addario, when you know, you know. It seems to me like there's a duality between what interests you and what you might acquire for a collection, and then feeling the pressure of the icon on the stage. And I think we all do that. We all have to wrestle with the icon in the guitar industry, right? And so there's, you know, some people say, "Oh, no, no, no, I play whatever I want." But if we played a little matching game where we put up like outfits, classes, hairstyles, and guitars, everyone would match them up pretty much the same way. I always thought, what would it be like to go into a shop, a brick and mortar shop? Unfortunately, they're dying off, but that's a different topic.

[01:17:26:26 - 01:17:30:27]
 I almost wore a Manny's t-shirt here for those of my generation.

[01:17:32:07 - 01:17:39:07]
 When 48th Street in New York City, you could walk down and go into the mecca

[01:17:40:12 - 01:18:28:01]
 of guitar stores, brick and mortar stores. For instance, if Zeppelin was playing at Madison Square Garden at that time, you know that one, if not all of them, were on 48th Street. But I'm wondering how many bass players, I can't speak for guitar players, how many bass players blindfolded who were just sitting down and a bass was put in their hands tonally would pick out what they currently play. They might be surprised. I mean, one of my favorite basses is a $650 Reverb Franken-P. It's a 62-MIJ reissue body. It's a warmeth neck. It's got a Tele headstock, Seymour Duncan quarter pounders. I was a little bit inebriated one night on Reverb,

[01:18:29:09 - 01:18:45:23]
 one of a few nights. And I saw this bass and it was just very, very attractive to me and it kills, it kills. And it was $650, the first two albums that my band did. That's what I played.

[01:18:46:25 - 01:18:52:03]
 So again, art versus functionality, what we just discussed.

[01:18:53:13 - 01:19:33:03]
 I play a Sandberg Oliver Rydell signature bass because I love the tone of it. They make great basses. You were mentioning Sheldon's basses. I love them. I have a P and I have a Super PJ. And I love the basses. I have one of the original Nollie basses, an NG2. I love them. The only issue that I have is I like to play above the 12th fret where there's no money. As they say above the 7th fret, there's no money. Chording is a little difficult for me on a fan fret bass. But when I'm playing in the low registers,

[01:19:34:17 - 01:20:08:03]
 Sheldon's basses are just fantastic. I'm predominantly a four string player. When I play five strings, I like to go E to C because that E is a comfort spot for me. But on the five strings, I find that low B is just fantastic. And he has made an exceptional product, I think, of four or five of his basses in the collection. And I'm clearly not done, especially with some of the new lines, the John Taylor line especially. I have my high end one over there. Yeah.

[01:20:09:19 - 01:20:14:14]
 Especially growing up in that era of John, I'm a big John Taylor fan. Right.

[01:20:15:16 - 01:20:22:07]
 Yeah. Yeah, and I love that bass. I love that it's a John Taylor bass.

[01:20:24:07 - 01:20:30:28]
 I partly want people to know that there's things in that bass like the Rupert Neve preamp, Right.

[01:20:32:05 - 01:20:53:01]
 Which it's, you're not buying that bass because of the color scheme and the stripes. Right. That bass is a particular performing instrument which I think deserves more attention, frankly. Yeah, I agree. Because that Rupert Neve preamp is a really interesting preamp to work with. There's a lot of possibilities there. Yes. Yeah, yeah. And so, on that multi-scale bit,

[01:20:54:12 - 01:21:02:20]
 one of the years of the Petit Guitar Showcase tour, I had not paid a lot of attention to what specifically the differences were in the way people were,

[01:21:05:07 - 01:21:11:28]
 that they were applying their use of the multi-scale in the physical instrument until a customer, actually in Pennsylvania,

[01:21:13:05 - 01:21:32:22]
 told me he's always wanted a multi-scale bass, but he plays a lot muting with his thumb, and the bridge on an angle is a problem for him. I said, "Oh, we have a bass here by 03, Alejandro Ramirez, and it's multi-scale, but actually the bridge is parallel to the frets, where actually all the high positions where you play, Yes.

[01:21:33:27 - 01:22:28:16]
 Are not fanned. It all fans at the nut only, not at the bridge side. And we had another instrument on the tour, and I'm blanking as to who it was. It's possible. I don't quote me on that, but we actually had three basses on tour where one had a parallel nut and fanned at the bridge, one had a parallel bridge and fanned at the nut, and then the dingwall were fanned in both directions. Right. (Laughing) That's interesting. So two of the strings were, if I understand you correctly, two of the strings from the nut to the bridge were not fan frets, and let's say-- If it was off on the string, all of it, so on the O3 instrument, he uses a normal bridge at the bottom, and so the first frets in the high-redisrupted 12-fret basically don't have any fanning at all. And so the extended scale happens at the nut side.

[01:22:29:23 - 01:22:32:11]
 And so there's a more extreme fan in first position,

[01:22:34:10 - 01:23:18:04]
 and no fan at all at the, what's it called, the 20-fret, I don't remember how many frets were on it, 2021, whatever it happened to be. And the other direction, there was someone who had, the nut was in a normal parallel position, and the first position was all more or less straight and fanned more extreme in the high register. And then dingwall chooses to center that, and it sort of goes fans out in both directions. Hence fan. Yeah, I really don't like the term. It's useful in talking to frets, but I'm on a mission to abolish the whole idea of talking about anything as a fan, fret, something. It's multiscale, the frets have to be in that position, but we did not put the frets in that position

[01:23:19:10 - 01:23:27:26]
 and then end up with multiscales, anyway, around. So it's about string tension and clarity, it's not about ergonomics at all. The ergonomics is a by-profit.

[01:23:29:13 - 01:23:48:07]
 What are your thoughts on true temperament frets? You don't see them very often, but on bases. But what are your thoughts on true temperament frets? Well, I mean, we have instruments with true temperament frets and people who love it, people who like it. We have instruments made by people like Giulio Negrini who offer that as an option.

[01:23:49:23 - 01:24:01:22]
 And some really care about that. And if you're the type of person where it drives you nuts that your instrument is intonated in first, second position, maybe not third, then it's a great solution.

[01:24:03:07 - 01:24:21:24]
 Other people are more or less fair about it. I had Bob Taylor on a panel discussion at the NAMM show this last year, and I think he said it was Brian Wilson that said the invention of the digital tuner or the electronic tuner made music thinner.

[01:24:23:14 - 01:24:29:19]
 How so? Well, because when you listen to a symphony orchestra, they're all fretless, we're kind of in tune.

[01:24:31:01 - 01:24:56:04]
 Of course. We're never fully in tune. And that slight, slight variation brings a fullness to the music and to the sound. And things became much tighter, but also more compressed and therefore thinner. I mean, thin, compressed, these are not really scientific terms, but I think we understand them culturally when we're talking about them. Of course. And so I think it's,

[01:24:57:21 - 01:24:59:15]
 there's this space between

[01:25:00:20 - 01:25:13:09]
 sort of the ideal of perfect true temperament and the idea that, you know, you listen to an old Beatles song, they're simply not in tune. They're not. Yeah, I agree. Not even close. Bob Dylan's song, I'm not sure.

[01:25:14:22 - 01:25:16:22]
 There's not a lot of evidence that he knew how to tune the guitar.

[01:25:17:27 - 01:25:24:15]
 (Laughs) I'm not trying to insult him, people loved it. But it was the fact that it wasn't perfect was one of the reasons they liked it. And so--

[01:25:25:19 - 01:25:30:22]
 From the rhythmic point of view, I can understand the whole,

[01:25:31:28 - 01:25:39:12]
 the quantizing of music and in regards to our conversation about it not being perfect.

[01:25:40:17 - 01:26:06:12]
 Rick Beato did that special where he took a John Bonham beat and quantized it and you wouldn't recognize it. That was the feel. Yeah, yeah. You wouldn't recognize the beat. Or it's Jeff Bill and Ranting about playing with a metronome. Or in the studio, I refuse to play with a click track. The drummer can please play with a click track. I don't wanna play with a click track. I want the BPMs to alternate slightly.

[01:26:07:25 - 01:26:18:23]
 But there's a lot of pressure playing with a click track being on the click. I can understand that the producer wants that because if you have to punch out at the 43rd bar to punch back in, without it, it's more difficult.

[01:26:20:08 - 01:26:31:03]
 But it loses a feel. I feel when you make something perfect, I don't think music should be perfect. And like you said, it's a great point regarding the fretless instruments.

[01:26:33:06 - 01:26:54:25]
 To be perfectly intonated, is there such a thing? Even the slightest micro millimeter, you're off by a few cents. And if the other instrument next to you is happens to be spot on, there's going to be dissonance there. Whether your ear can pick it up depending on how strongly the dissonance is.

[01:26:55:27 - 01:27:02:01]
 And that's what makes music interesting, I think. Yeah, I think that if that's something that you want,

[01:27:03:27 - 01:27:30:01]
 have it. Great. Because you can always make something less perfect. So I have a playlist on my Spotify that's labeled playing like I don't give a fuck. And it's those bands who are playing in a way where they don't sound perfect. They're out of tune a little bit. The drums are kind of shitty. They might be peaking intentionally. And there's a feel to that. I had a guy at one of our events years ago

[01:27:31:07 - 01:28:08:17]
 look at the guitar, at the P I looked at and said, "You have no fucking idea "what rock is." Right. I said, "There is no rock guitar. "Rock is in you, it's in me. "I can rock any fucking guitar in this room." Of course. He was like, "Well, that's rock and roll, right? "You knew what I was doing when I stared you down." Right. "Oh yeah, you want to tell me "it's not a fucking rock guitar? "Check this out." Yeah. So you can make something imperfect through your actions. Yes.

[01:28:09:23 - 01:28:11:15]
 But if you have an imperfect guitar,

[01:28:12:27 - 01:28:39:10]
 you can't force it to be in tune necessarily, right? And so if I have to live with a guitar that can't be in tune or a guitar that can be really in tune that I can mess with, I choose the guitar that could be really in tune. That I can mess with. I agree. (Both Laughing) I mean, I hate working on intonation, especially with a large collection if I want them to all be on tune. That to me is an arduous task, getting the intonation spot on.

[01:28:40:15 - 01:29:23:03]
 But again, it's difficult because I like to play in the higher registers. So the band that I'm in, my guitar player's not a shredder. He's more of laying down through, he plays an old SG and he likes vintage guitars, but his pedalboard is almost NASA creative. And he lays down this atmosphere and the bass almost takes the vocals, it takes the melody. So intonation is very important to me because I'm playing in the low registers to lay down the groove and then maybe I'll loop that. And then I'll play melody up higher. So the neck really has to be intonated properly.

[01:29:24:21 - 01:29:31:10]
 And some instruments, he just can't, or I just can't get it. And so I'll have to take it to a shop.

[01:29:32:11 - 01:29:57:25]
 And as a collector, that starts to get expensive, take it to a shop. So I do the best I can to get it intonated. But I think that's the, is that the quality of the manufacturer of the bridge? The intonation, where do you think that-- Well, I mean, there's all sorts of components for that. I mean, it can even be your neck angle. If you had to press your strings down too much in the higher register, you're bending them out of tune.

[01:29:58:25 - 01:30:24:07]
 And so the pitch of the neck makes a huge difference actually as to how much intune you can be in the high register. Yeah, and so there's lots of different iterations, but then you select the instrument that inspires you to do the great thing. You can play incredible music on a Steinway, but you don't really get a great honky-tonk sound. If that's what you're looking for, if you wanna play a stride piano on a Steinway, you can.

[01:30:26:02 - 01:30:29:21]
 But actually it almost begs for a piano that's a little out of tune, probably not right.

[01:30:30:22 - 01:30:34:26]
 That's not quite perfect. And so the style of music, and I feel the same thing with guitars.

[01:30:36:07 - 01:30:49:25]
 I love musical instruments that take me places that I otherwise might not have gone. And that's usually not because of a lack of limitations. It's usually because of a limitation in a particular area. And sometimes that limitation, by the way,

[01:30:52:00 - 01:30:53:09]
 can be too much sustain,

[01:30:54:22 - 01:30:58:28]
 which doesn't seem like a limitation. But if you're playing Jamerson,

[01:31:00:22 - 01:31:04:07]
 you gotta control this thing now. It's got too much life.

[01:31:05:18 - 01:32:09:26]
 (Both Laughing) So that's a great point. So if you're playing an all-Maple sort of high-five bass through like an Epiphani or something of the sort like that, to pull off Jamerson, you should put a mitten on, and play that. (Both Laughing) Right, right, right. To get that thing to calm down, put a piece of foam underneath your bridge. Which is very popular. And maybe even something at the nut just to sort of reduce the efficiencies of this instrument. And often with high-end builders, we're very focused on removing all the limitations, but actually character is built by the limitations. We understand the difference in the voice, the memorable voices we know, the Willie Nelsons, the Ozzy Osbournees, the Ellipits, Gerald, Louis, you know, Billy Holiday, whoever it happens to be, we know their voice not because they're perfect, but actually because they're imperfect. Right. And so true mastery on the making of an instrument, and on the performing of an instrument, knows how to choose the instrument with the right limitations, and when you're building it, how to build in, how to fence it into a particular area.

[01:32:11:00 - 01:32:38:13]
 Cedar Creek Custom Case Shop is your premier threaded instrument custom case maker, and we invite you to create a musical instrument case unlike any other, one that's unique to you. Ever Cedar Creek Custom Case is hand built by highly skilled craftspeople using only select woods, prominent forge hardware, and premium instrument-friendly materials. At Cedar Creek Custom Case Shop, we're dedicated to helping you design the case of your dreams. Find out more at cedarcreakcases.com. This falls right in line with collecting.

[01:32:40:05 - 01:32:56:11]
 I love the variation of looking along the walls and pulling something down that I haven't played in a long time and being surprised. That's one of the reasons I enjoy collecting also, and being surprised that, oh yeah,

[01:32:57:14 - 01:33:23:29]
 I remember why I bought this bass. I loved it if it's an old guild, and I haven't played this for a very long time, and then I find, man, I really love this. And then I'll say, well, and then the night's over, because then I'll go over and play something else, and that variation is what really thrills me. I don't really wanna be known as a collector. I wanna be known as a bass player.

[01:33:26:02 - 01:33:33:12]
 Collecting just comes along with it, and I've been blessed enough to be able to curate

[01:33:35:05 - 01:34:02:00]
 a broad collection of wide breadth of different basses, but I'm always on the lookout. One of the reasons I go to Expos is there are so many builders there that don't go to NAMM. And I use NAMM as maybe one of the biggest shows in the world. By far the biggest show in the world. Oh, okay, you would know. It's not even a fair competition for anyone else to try. (Laughs)

[01:34:03:07 - 01:34:51:00]
 125 years later. I haven't been to as many as you have. That's why I said a little trepidatiously. So, okay, the largest event. The next biggest shows are like 10,000, maybe 20,000 attendees. NAMM in the slowest year in the last decade was at 65,000. Okay. And normally is closer to 100,000. And so it's, yeah, it's not a fair competition. (Laughs) 10 days, but what about exhibitors? Oh, still by far. By far. There's so many I find in Bologna, in Mannheim, in other places because either they don't wanna go or coming into America right now with its political tensions or the cost of taking seven or eight instruments.

[01:34:52:09 - 01:35:29:10]
 And I like to see what's on the marketplace. That thrills me to see. I saw a company called Perception Bases out of Greece and they blew me away. I think one of the problems is that what brick and mortar store you're going to go to to try one, especially in that price range. Again, I'm very lucky to be able to travel and to go to different shows and sit and try instruments out that I wouldn't be able to find in the States.

[01:35:31:29 - 01:35:37:05]
 I don't know how to solve that problem, nor is it my task to solve that problem for a luthier.

[01:35:39:08 - 01:35:50:26]
 What do you think? How does that luthier break into the United States? Because many that I've spoken to want to of course break into the United States.

[01:35:52:23 - 01:36:02:00]
 What do you think is the solution for that? Well, I mean, we do provide solutions for that. My life has been a solution for that in many ways.

[01:36:03:17 - 01:36:13:11]
 My career comes up with European guitar makers and helping them establish themselves in North America. I'm part of Jens Ritter's early story. I handled Jens' sales for years in North America.

[01:36:14:19 - 01:37:03:11]
 Nik Huber, Claudio and Claudio Pagelli, Teuffel, all these brands. Right, Teuffel. It was me as a Canadian. I didn't know at the time, but I understand retrospectively that I have a cultural advantage that I'm closer to being European than the Americans are, and I'm much closer to being an American than the Europeans are. And so we're effective cultural translators somehow, right? And so I spent much of my career just translating the interests of American dealers to European luthiers and the interests of European luthiers to American dealers. Do you still do that? I still do that with the Petit Guitar Showcase. I don't act as an active sales agent anymore, but we do set up dealer networks with the BGS on tour.

[01:37:04:14 - 01:37:24:19]
 And so many guitar brands have set up effective relationships. What are the parameters of that luthier's art that you decide to take their artwork and bring it, be an advocate in the States or North America?

[01:37:26:15 - 01:39:39:13]
 What are the requirements? Yeah, so I have the most discriminating business model that is in the guitar world. And so the word discrimination, people mostly associate with horrible things, but anybody who's done something really great is very selective, let's say, right? And so I only work with what I consider to be unique, world-class instrument makers who are contributing something to the conversation of the guitar. So there's a lot of amazing bass makers out in the world who make really good instruments, but are they contributing something to the conversation that someone else hasn't already contributed or isn't contributing a better version of already? And so they're sort of concentric circles. You talked a moment ago about the reasons that they aren't traveling to the US. And if you make just a really good iteration of a jazz bass and you have a repair shop, but you do excellent setup jobs and someone asks you to make a bass for them, you can sell those locally. You're probably not gonna sell them around the world because this competition is too high, right? If you do something like the De Kier, you know, Sander De Geer, I think. Yes, yes. Sander makes incredible instruments that are more or less jazz or P.A.S.s. And really good. And so he sells them mostly within Europe, but he doesn't really like to travel and such and he sells everything he has already. It's not particularly driven to have an international business, but then down the road, not so far, we have someone like Sandberg who is also making something of a jazz bass, right? And so, but now they have an international brand, but frankly, if you take those instruments, you realize that Holger at Sandberg has spent decades dialing in, going through the effort, really creating a proposition, which is easy to understand. He understands what the price and what the offer is, how to communicate it. And this communication becomes a much bigger deal once you start communicating with people of different cultures and further and further away. And also your consistency, your quality, your ability to deliver, all of that changes. And so, but to get my attention,

[01:39:41:25 - 01:40:00:10]
 I need to have someone who's doing something in a way that no one else is. And sometimes it's subtle. Someone like Nikolai Adamovic, right? Yeah, so I was just spent a few hours with him, great guy. So, Nikolai makes a bass which looks a lot like other basses at first,

[01:40:01:24 - 01:40:09:19]
 but he has spent a lot of attention to the ergonomics of the instrument, and that's his sort of unique selling proposition. It's not obvious.

[01:40:11:14 - 01:40:35:17]
 And he needs to succeed at making a noise and drawing attention if he wants to grow that larger than it is. But those who know, know, and he's got a loyal following. Very loyal. So, Nikolai has been in the boutique guitar showcase, and he's the kind of guy who would, but I'm the kind of guy who has made a specialty of being able to communicate those unique features and what it brings to the world, the way I did for you earlier on with the Ritter bass, the way I just did with Nikolai.

[01:40:37:09 - 01:40:40:22]
 And so, where you play as Sander's instruments

[01:40:41:25 - 01:40:45:05]
 with De Gier, I'm not saying that right, I don't have a Dutch, to be Dutch.

[01:40:46:05 - 01:40:51:10]
 (Laughing) Yeah, you know, I did that here, I call. Americans, I think, just say De Gier, and that's fine.

[01:40:52:13 - 01:41:39:04]
 And so, really, what you have there is a guaranteed great jazz bass or P bass. The Bebop. Every time. It's a killer bass. He never puts out something that isn't an awesome instrument. Right, okay. Or the soul mate. Yeah, but he's not offering you something that's particularly unique. That's correct. Right? Whereas you can't get those features of an adamovic in someone else's instrument, because they're not, they didn't spend years consulting with a physiotherapist and working out the details. And that's what brings you to the world-class level, is having a concept that you dial in, and dial in, and dial in, and that's what, yeah, it's Ritter has done, that's what Sheldon Dingwall has done, that's what Marek from Stradi has done, so on and so forth. So when you see a bass in the Boutique Guitar Showcase,

[01:41:40:05 - 01:41:44:22]
 it has to not only be unique, because there's lots of unique things which are shit.

[01:41:46:20 - 01:42:10:00]
 (Laughs) That's unique. Agreed. No one wants it. Agreed. So then it has to be world-class. I mean, when I say world-class, I mean world-class in quality and feature, because when I traveled the US, I've been in more than 600 guitar shops, I've been in every state, every province in the US, and I did it starting with acoustic guitars. I mean, you bring an acoustic guitar shop into a high-end acoustic shop in America, somewhere like the Music Emporium in the Boston area,

[01:42:11:01 - 01:42:32:10]
 or Rudy's Music in New York. They know it well. Before they even really touch the guitar, they take it directly to the repair bench, they pull out a dental mirror and a flashlight. Downstairs. Like they start looking for any fucking problem, before we're gonna talk about anything else. And that's what people don't understand, because they haven't been exposed to the highest level of competition.

[01:42:33:15 - 01:43:12:04]
 And when you get to that highest level of competition, you cannot send a bass with a bad nut job to Chicago Music Exchange. They will reject it, they will send it back. Yes. Right? Because they don't want to be the guy who sold a bass that wasn't up to snuff to their customer. And so, you can do that locally because people don't know any better. You can do that in a bit of a larger area if there's not a lot of competition. Correct. But once you get to the global stage, where you could be buying anything you want, if your customer is David Sutkin, who's got 350-ish bases somewhere in that, I don't know what your current number is.

[01:43:14:27 - 01:44:43:28]
 (Laughs) You know, you've had a lot of experience. Yes. And what your cousin thinks is less relevant now. I don't care what my cousin thinks. No, I mean the cousin of the guitar maker. Ah, right. What they think is less relevant now, because now you're sending your bass to a guy who owns a Fodera and a ritter and Dingwall and whatever. And so, the instruments that have been tested on the global stage. Yes. Yeah, I feel that way about, like, pedulla, the bass is, to me, grabbing a Padula and playing that is like opening a bottle of fine wine. If it's a Saturday night to me, I actually feel that way. Let's break open this bottle. Yeah. And that's pulling one of the pedulla's off the wall, or one of Marek's bases off the wall. I love Marek and Aga, they were such wonderful people. And that helps also, right? The relationship that you have with the builder, or when the contrition. Like a bottle that was given to you by a good friend that you experienced in the first time. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. You were in Diatasime with Jens Ritter and he brought you to a place, and you had this Riesling. You said, "I want a case of that." And you go home and you think about your time with Jens drinking a bottle of Riesling. And now it's bringing you back. And your base is, if you know the person, evokes all those wonderful sort of vacation-like moments. Yeah, it's the same. That's a great analogy. And I feel that way when I play,

[01:44:44:29 - 01:44:47:15]
 when the Marlow Contra showed up,

[01:44:49:15 - 01:44:53:28]
 I didn't know Gerald at that time. I got it through Morton, the bass Buddha.

[01:44:55:00 - 01:44:59:20]
 And I went to a show and I sat down with Gerald and we had a wonderful conversation.

[01:45:01:13 - 01:45:11:09]
 So then I bought a concert, and then I have another one coming this week, one of those, the old violin finish. It's absolutely gorgeous.

[01:45:12:14 - 01:45:20:14]
 I bought a Spock and I think about him all the time. And the fact that I can call him and have a conversation,

[01:45:21:22 - 01:45:36:20]
 I don't know why, but it makes it all the sweeter to me to give feedback and speak with the luthier. I have more relationships with luthiers than I do with other bass players.

[01:45:38:03 - 01:45:44:23]
 And I just light up inside going over to Bruno's shop and playing some of his instruments.

[01:45:46:00 - 01:45:58:00]
 I'll be going, in this trip to Italy, I'll be going to see Polly over at Alleison. I could be driving there. And the difference between Bruno building with wormwood when he made the Amritas,

[01:45:59:27 - 01:46:06:28]
 of which I think I have number 17 and number 40, the last one being a party in Tuscany for the last Amrita. I was there.

[01:46:08:00 - 01:46:27:28]
 That's right, that's exactly where we met. And what a fun evening that was. But then going over to Alleisonic, who is now working out of carbon fiber and stainless steel and making instruments that I love also. So to have that variation available to me,

[01:46:29:02 - 01:46:42:23]
 I'm not a monster player, I'm a decent player. I'm not a monster player, but I can hold my own. And so having all these instruments around to play is just a, it's a thrill.

[01:46:43:24 - 01:47:12:15]
 It's a thrill. I know you like a good variation of wines, right? To me, it's very much like that. There's a different flavor from each instrument. But I also will collect all the special color Rickenbockers. There's maybe 20 something Rickenbockers in my place. Many of them sound the same. Those I buy for the rarity.

[01:47:14:07 - 01:47:15:18]
 It's cool to have.

[01:47:17:17 - 01:47:19:10]
 I don't buy for the resale value

[01:47:20:13 - 01:47:24:05]
 because it's like the old commercial when bugs check in, they don't check out.

[01:47:25:05 - 01:48:00:02]
 Well, I don't resell anything because, ah, except the one that got away, I had a one off matte black Fodera P bass that I sold. And you don't wanna buy a bass for me because I will haunt you down to buy it back. I have so much more. And even if I buy it, let's say for 4,000, I sell to you for $5,000, just saying, now I have to pay you $5,000 to buy it back. Yeah. I just miss them so much. And it doesn't make a difference what it is.

[01:48:01:10 - 01:48:24:04]
 This space is normally reserved for brands who make stories like this possible, like the Dario and the Cedar Creek Custom Case Shop. If your company belongs in this conversation, let's talk. We partner with brands who value craft, culture, and the quiet power of a well-placed idea. Base up front, we do raffles at certain points when we hit a community milestone.

[01:48:25:05 - 01:49:40:25]
 And in the beginning, I was raffling off my own bases. So I looked around the room, what am I gonna raffle off? The biggest mistake is cleaning it up, setting it up, getting it in tune, and getting the intonation right, and then playing it before you box it up. Now, I highly suggest not doing that. Yes, yes. I had a De Angelico bass that I fell in love with. Same thing, cleaned it up, restrung it, oiled the neck, started playing it, and I can't get rid of this. So long story short, I picked Made in Japan, Fender, Geddy Lee, Signature, Jazz Bass, and I raffled it off. All the money went to musichairs.org. All the money base up front generates, whether in merch or we do raffles to give away gear. In the beginning, it was my gear. So the top prize was that Fender, Geddy Lee, Jazz Bass. I mean, for a $10 raffle ticket, it's worth giving it a shot. And then three or four days later, I went out and I bought the same bass, but an M.I.J. and an M.I.A.

[01:49:42:01 - 01:50:02:02]
 because I had seller's remorse. And that's the biggest bitch about being a collector. So I just decided, unless poverty hits, or unless something devastating happens, I have them written into my will. I have a dear friend who knows what it costs, it's like that old joke, if I told my fiance

[01:50:03:16 - 01:50:25:17]
 the truth about what I paid for them, or if she sold them based on what I told her, I paid for them. And she's be selling them for $500 a pop, $400 a pop. But I have a dear friend who knows what I have and I trust him and he'll take care of it. And I'm not sure if something happened to me, but until then, I'll just keep on looking for

[01:50:27:09 - 01:50:31:05]
 high-end artwork that speaks to me.

[01:50:33:22 - 01:50:57:04]
 Not to change the topic too drastically, but what I find is a concern is at some of these expos, I'm looking at instruments that have a P or a J style body, subtle differences. I'll sit down and I'll play them and I won't be typically blown away by any particular feature, but the pricing,

[01:50:58:15 - 01:51:02:20]
 I would say the Manheim show,

[01:51:04:00 - 01:51:20:07]
 I'm sorry, the baloney show that we just came from, so many bases in the price range of 4,500 euro to 6,000 euro. And then I think as an American, okay, so there is 5,000 to 7,000 US dollars.

[01:51:21:15 - 01:52:10:05]
 The opportunities that are available to me, if I had five to $7,000 burning a hole in my pocket, I don't know what's so, like you said, what's so special about this that it's worth that kind of money. And maybe this is why you're not breaking into the United States. This is why I respect someone like Adrian Marie Chick so much, because his bases are really very high quality and they're right in the right price point. And I respect builders who, it's not so much about how much money they're making per instrument. I know luthiers, I won't say any names of course, that cost them X and they're charging 7X. Because it's about the money, it's about the profitability. But you have a luthier making a fantastic product at a reasonable price point. I think that's your entry point

[01:52:11:09 - 01:52:20:08]
 into the US for more people to try. I mean, every man is spending generally $1,500 to $2,000.

[01:52:21:09 - 01:52:28:07]
 That's what Guitar Center caters to from a five to $700 instrument,

[01:52:29:27 - 01:53:08:07]
 even the Harley Benton's to Sterling music man bases. To come out with a line that is not particularly interesting or it doesn't have any kind of interesting aesthetic appeal or tonality appeal and to be asking 5,500 or 6,000 Euro or even US dollars, that's a lot of money. And the answer I always get is, do you know how many hours it took me to build this? And do you know what my time is worth? Well, something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for.

[01:53:09:24 - 01:53:16:19]
 And I think that's detrimental for many collectors getting back to the origin of this conversation.

[01:53:18:17 - 01:53:22:22]
 I think there are a lot of builders pricing themselves out of the marketplace.

[01:53:24:01 - 01:53:52:09]
 Yeah, sure, but we see that in every business. We see people whose business costs are just too high for doing what they're doing. Their profit margins aren't right. And I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. Your profit margins aren't right. And you have to figure that out. It's supply and demand. We're having a conversation about guitars. Yeah, yeah, but you're having a conversation coming from the new world to the old world. They're having a conversation from the old world to the new world. How so? And so, I mean, we're sitting right now 90 minutes from Cremona.

[01:53:53:14 - 01:53:53:21]
 Okay.

[01:53:55:00 - 01:54:02:14]
 Right? Yes. And I was there a few weeks ago and heard somebody play me a 400-year-old Amati violin. Right.

[01:54:04:04 - 01:54:27:11]
 And there is a culture of craft and going to school for four years, that apprenticing. There are guilds we have to be a part of to be able to make and sell an instrument. One of the reasons that Martin left Germany and went to America was because he was trained as a cabinet maker and wasn't allowed to sell instruments. Yeah.

[01:54:28:26 - 01:54:33:09]
 And so, even though he studied with Stauffer in Vienna,

[01:54:34:09 - 01:54:39:25]
 in Germany, his father was a cabinet maker. He was part of the cabinet-making guild, not the violin-making guild.

[01:54:40:26 - 01:54:44:28]
 And so it was against the rules. That's how they protected. It's like American trademark boss.

[01:54:46:02 - 01:54:57:00]
 And so they protected by these guilds. And so, the American musical instrument is akin to the Model T.

[01:55:00:16 - 01:55:04:07]
 Ben's made the first car trip. Yes.

[01:55:05:16 - 01:55:17:13]
 (Laughs) Yes, yes. But Henry Ford set the first production line and made them super cheap and available to the masses. So the American mind frame is that this should be as cheap as possible and get it to the masses. Correct.

[01:55:18:13 - 01:56:00:25]
 But the European mind frame is about taking a life of value and a craft of value, and that's worth something. And to make it as cheap as possible is disrespectful. That's the culture that I'm coming from. Yes. Right? To their detriment. Maybe. Are they living? So anytime that someone, I have a question like that, I say, "Oh, are you great? Are you selling, you have a lot of customers? You selling guitars?" "Yes, I've been doing this for a number of years. Yeah, yeah, that's a good, yeah, how long would it take for me to get a guitar if I ordered it from you?" "Well, 12 months." So I'm like, "Okay, if you've got customers and a 12 month lead time, and you're selling from that price, I may not see the value, but someone else does. Good for you." Right. Right? You know, it's...

[01:56:01:28 - 01:56:43:05]
 (Laughs) And context is important too. You know, on the street, you know, getting a hot dog, you expect to pay, what's a hot dog in New York right now? Three dollars. Three dollars, right? You know, but if you get that hot dog in the French Laundry, you're not expecting it for three bucks anymore. And it's no longer quite the same hot dog, right? It depends on who's making it and the reputation and the experience of it. And the same thing applies to guitar makers. So it's still supply and demand. You know, if you are Claudio and Claudio Pagelli and you make six guitars a year, and you live in Switzerland and have a daughter to feed, you know, how much do your six guitars have to be? Great.

[01:56:44:08 - 01:57:20:19]
 They can't beat 1500 bucks, no fucking way. (Laughs) And so now the onus is on them to make something that is valuable enough to someone that they will pay the price it takes so that they can feed themselves on six guitars a year. Much smaller audience, of course, but those who are curators know what a pajole is worth. Yes. Right. I was at Lamborghini with Sheldon Dingwall a year or two ago. They make thousands of guitars a year. Yes. We then went to Pagani. They make 50 cars a year. Right, right.

[01:57:21:19 - 01:57:36:14]
 Understood. I was impressed with both of them. Yes. But what do you have to do to make 50 cars a year and sell them to the most elite people in the world? You have to make something really fucking special. I gotta tell you, when I went to Pagani, they are making something very, very special. Let me ask you on the other side of the spectrum.

[01:57:38:00 - 01:57:51:10]
 So I'm 58 years old. I started playing when I was 12. I played an old Japanese hondo bass that I needed Popeye muscles on my fingers just to press down the strings.

[01:57:53:02 - 01:57:53:28]
 Get that upright tone.

[01:57:55:22 - 01:58:04:12]
 Yes, yes. And the dexterity of the muscles in your left hand. If you don't play a lefty.

[01:58:06:06 - 01:58:20:18]
 As a test, I bought a Harley Benton when they first came out. It was $115 delivered to my house in a cardboard box. I could have gigged it that night.

[01:58:21:28 - 01:58:29:01]
 Unchanged with the strings and the bridge and the pickup that came in was $115.

[01:58:30:01 - 01:58:37:01]
 It was a good bass. Let me guess, was a jazz bass or a P bass? It was a P bass. Yeah, but a P bass was meant to be a cheap bass.

[01:58:38:04 - 01:59:09:12]
 Leo Fender was always trying to make an industrial design cheap, fast product. And we've gotten better at making things cheap and fast. The trajectory of the P bass is not up. The trajectory of the P bass must be down because the price was always where it was based on how cheap they could get it. And they couldn't get it cheaper at the time. Yes. But now we can. And so the trajectory of the P bass is five bucks. Not that it'll ever be five bucks, but that's the trajectory. But it might be $5 because if you think that

[01:59:10:16 - 01:59:24:22]
 Tawan is selling these basses for $120, let's just say, I don't know, but I've heard tell, and I could be wrong, that they're spending somewhere around $25, $30 to buy, to have them produced.

[01:59:25:25 - 01:59:34:09]
 And the factories, they're still making money. Yes. So what is the actual cost of the parts and the labor?

[01:59:35:10 - 01:59:53:17]
 Is it $10 to make that? 12, 50, $15 to make that. Well, they're in a different market. They're in China making it, right? I understand. We're sitting here right now in Tuscany. If you asked somebody five bucks for an espresso here, you wouldn't sell a damn espresso to anyone. No one.

[01:59:54:19 - 02:00:05:00]
 I was at a really high-end academy of espresso yesterday where they teach other people around the world to make espresso. The espresso was like $1.50.

[02:00:06:04 - 02:00:06:04]
 (Laughs)

[02:00:07:22 - 02:00:11:01]
 They will not pay you more for it in this marketplace.

[02:00:12:10 - 02:01:13:20]
 And so in order to make a Harley Benton, you can't do that in Germany where Tomlin is. You have to go somewhere where they have not just cheaper labor, because China, it's a big mistake to think about China as a cheap labor place at this point. They are the most technologically advanced culture on the planet right now. And they can make shit fast. And they have supply chains that are fast and efficiency there that we don't have. But the product is good. A good product? Yes, it's surprisingly a good product. Yes. Yeah. But it just blows me away when you come down to it. What does it actually cost, net net, to make that instrument if it's $10, it blows me away that that could be mass-produced. Such a quality product at $10 at that cost. Well, you have to do a lot of $10 to make the money done, right? So you have to get the volume, you have to move it real fast, you have to be extremely efficient. And then, is that what you're buying?

[02:01:15:18 - 02:01:27:00]
 The Fiat Panda is probably the best designed car in the entire world. If you're looking at a car that is a utility that makes sense, that gets you somewhere that has fuel efficiency, that lasts forever,

[02:01:28:01 - 02:01:43:16]
 can go down a road made for doggies and climb a mountain on a dirt road. Right. Like, we have all these truck commercials in America about you needing this big-ass pickup truck to go off-road. A Fiat Panda will do lock in circles around those big pickup trucks.

[02:01:44:17 - 02:02:01:00]
 And keep going when they're stuck in the mud. Right. And so, but do you really dream about owning a Fiat Panda, though? No. Right. So luxury is defined by the unnecessary. It gets utility or it's luxury. And luxury is unnecessary or else it's not luxury.

[02:02:02:03 - 02:02:08:08]
 And so, there's a conversation to be had about something that is expensive or something that is costly.

[02:02:09:27 - 02:02:16:04]
 And so, you know, I go to a restaurant here all the time that specializes in slow food.

[02:02:19:01 - 02:02:20:11]
 It's not McDonald's ever. Right.

[02:02:21:22 - 02:02:34:15]
 It comes when it comes. Right. They take their time, they deal with it, the customers. Right. But when I get it, you know, we got to know them fairly well at this point in time. And I remember just eating a piece of prosciutto, a piece of ham.

[02:02:36:04 - 02:02:39:22]
 And I said, "What is this ham?"

[02:02:41:02 - 02:02:41:26]
 Slapping the shoulder.

[02:02:43:05 - 02:02:48:22]
 "What do you mean? It's the best." (Both Laughing) What's the answer? The answer, right.

[02:02:49:22 - 02:03:24:08]
 (Both Laughing) But it stopped me in my tracks. This wasn't a piece of ham. I grew up eating ham sandwiches, you know, for lunch as a kid. Of course. This was something else. And what was it? There was an inefficient old slow process of slowly drawing the moisture out of ham by wrapping it in salt and cloth over a long period of time and letting it sit inefficiently in a storage place, a cave of some sort of thing for a very long period of time. This is not about cranking them out and making them as fast as you can. I won't die if I keep eating industrial ham.

[02:03:25:27 - 02:03:49:07]
 But will I live? As a guitar builder and a player, you have a sense for when something's working right. That's why so many of the world's best trust D'addario, unmatched tone, perfect intonation, and strings made to the tightest tolerances in the industry. That reputation is no accident. It's the result of 400 years of being obsessed with quality and innovation. D'addario, when you know, you know.

[02:03:51:11 - 02:03:51:18]
 Yes.

[02:03:53:01 - 02:04:03:26]
 Yes, I understand the point. Yeah. And Rudy Pensa says, "Jamie," he's quoting. I forgot, I don't know who's quoting, but he's quoting. Says, "Jamie, I'm too old to drink cheap wine."

[02:04:05:11 - 02:04:12:04]
 And listen, at this stage of my life, I am too old to drink cheap wine. I'm too old to eat bad cheese.

[02:04:13:06 - 02:04:36:18]
 I'm too old to play a shitty guitar. Brother, my friend, I'm 58. I don't fly coach anymore. Not that there's anything wrong. I don't fly coach anymore. I'm at 55, I bought a Range Rover that I couldn't, that wasn't necessary. I could have bought a Toyota Corolla and it would have been fine. As long as a base and a, you know, a 412 cabinet fit in the back, I'm good.

[02:04:37:25 - 02:05:01:22]
 But at this point in my life, I want quality. You know, I want quality. I want something good. I want what I want. And when it comes to instruments, that's the thing. If I'm on reverb one night and I see something that I love, I'm good. I'm gonna buy it. I'm gonna buy it and I'm gonna love on it. And I'm gonna be excited about when it comes.

[02:05:03:02 - 02:05:32:01]
 And as long as it's reasonable, I mean, I came across a Carl Thompson, not that long ago, and I was overjoyed. I mean, the materialistic side of me is, you know, is fighting with the thorough side of me right now. But I bought it. And I was thrilled when it came. And it's not like, you know, they say you buy this shiny object and then it dulls over time. That's the beautiful thing I think about collecting.

[02:05:33:08 - 02:05:56:22]
 It doesn't lose its luster to me after a while. It's always just as exciting as the day I bought it. And I would say that with the overwhelming majority of the collection, I can't say that about a lot of things that I collect. I buy trinkets and I buy pedals and I buy, you know, cabinets and heads, all kinds of gear.

[02:05:57:27 - 02:06:28:15]
 But the guitars, the basses that I buy, they never lose their luster. To me, it's always an adventure pulling something down. And I think as a collector, that differs from having, you know, Marcus Miller will tell you, you only need one bass and know everything about that bass, know where every subtle nuance is on that, where you could pick up harmonics that you couldn't pick up on any other bass, know every fret marker, know everything, okay?

[02:06:30:07 - 02:06:35:15]
 Not for a collector's brand. To me, I want variation.

[02:06:36:15 - 02:06:46:22]
 And I'm wondering, does one make you more of a musician than not? I don't necessarily think so. Time in on your instrument has nothing to do with your collection.

[02:06:48:17 - 02:06:51:01]
 You can still put in your 10 hour days,

[02:06:53:01 - 02:07:06:08]
 if you so choose to, is that Malcolm Gladwell, right? The 10,000 hour mastery. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you could put in your Gladwellian 10,000 hours and still have a massive collection. It doesn't make you any less of a player.

[02:07:07:17 - 02:07:23:16]
 And I like that. I like that I can, you know, I'll take one bass down and I'll play it for a few days, generally or a week. I'll bring three or four basses to a band rehearsal, just to try them out, because they sound,

[02:07:24:26 - 02:07:31:13]
 three jazz basses that sound somewhat the same will sound different through pedals for some reason.

[02:07:32:22 - 02:07:34:24]
 Pedal collecting is also a passion of mine.

[02:07:35:24 - 02:07:41:23]
 There are some really, I mean, are you into the pedal world as well or just the-- I know something of it, carry on. Okay.

[02:07:42:25 - 02:08:06:03]
 I think that the work that Meris and Glue Glue and some of the other boutique companies are doing are pretty amazing, or putting their heads together and one company makes half the pedal and another company makes the other half. And there are pedals that you can open up and change the configuration and they have those little toggles on the back, Chase Bliss.

[02:08:07:19 - 02:08:14:24]
 I really like that a great deal. As a matter of fact, when it comes to checking out different pedals,

[02:08:16:28 - 02:09:26:01]
 I use UAD audio. And the beautiful thing about UAD is they, the pedal sounds or the effects sounds are processed inside the device. So you're not relying on your computer processor, the strain, so you get a clear sound and they're not cheap knockoffs. I believe they work with the company that manufactures or manufactured the pedal. And I'm afraid to just, all right, I'm gonna test this out because if I love it, I'm gonna track down that original pedal. Auto, O-T-T-O, do you know this pedal company? They make the Biscuit, it's French for biscuit. And they make these obscure pedals and I tracked one down, it was like $850. It's a bit crusher and a sequencer. And my God, when that arrived, I mean, I saw the emulation on the computer at first, but I'm afraid to hit that button on UAD because I'm gonna fall in love with that pedal and I'm gonna have to chase down the actual physical one. And yet so many people are going to plugins.

[02:09:28:25 - 02:09:31:08]
 What are your thoughts on that? Plugins versus actual hardware.

[02:09:33:03 - 02:09:45:16]
 I think that it's in that case, it becomes about the destination and E1.

[02:09:47:08 - 02:09:50:20]
 Okay, I'll quote Harold Eggerton in this one.

[02:09:53:14 - 02:09:55:25]
 Says, "No one gives a damn about your drill.

[02:09:56:28 - 02:09:57:13]
 They want the hole."

[02:09:58:26 - 02:10:03:13]
 Yeah, so someone who's using plugins

[02:10:04:22 - 02:10:08:06]
 is not interested in the process. There are people who care about the drill, a great deal about the drill.

[02:10:09:07 - 02:10:25:11]
 (Laughing) There are people who collect mechanical art. Right. Right? But in this case, we want the hole. And when it comes to making music, if your objective is to make music, to record music in particular,

[02:10:28:22 - 02:10:42:18]
 you're much more likely to achieve the results you want without having to put in the 10,000 hours of mastery into how to get the sound you're looking for, to even understand what the hell that sound is.

[02:10:43:19 - 02:10:56:00]
 When I first had my guitar store many years ago, I remember in the early days, someone coming in and saying, "I'm looking for guitar to get this Beatles sound."

[02:10:57:03 - 02:11:16:02]
 And he wanted me to just sell him the thing. And I said, "That's not just the guitar. That's an old recording. That's a guitar plus this amplifier plus this mic plus this room plus this mixing console plus..." You know?

[02:11:17:04 - 02:11:23:20]
 (Laughing) That is, if you just bought that guitar and think you're gonna sound like that track, that's frankly not.

[02:11:25:21 - 02:11:31:07]
 We're having a little bit of a conversation. And he was just like, "Oh, you don't know what you're talking about."

[02:11:32:08 - 02:11:33:23]
 (Laughing) No, but you're exactly right.

[02:11:35:00 - 02:11:36:09]
 And so when we come to plugins,

[02:11:37:29 - 02:12:29:21]
 actually I had this conversation yesterday. I was driving my son to the airport and he brought up something about this and we talked about drum tracks. He talked about John Bonner later on in quantizing. I said, "You know, that drum sound, when the levee breaks, is recorded at the bottom of the stairwell in a mansion." Yeah, I agree. You need the space with that technology to get that sound. Right. You know, Kiss's "I Love Aloud," that huge cavernous drum sound from "I Love Aloud," which was inspired by when the levee breaks, they ripped out a wall in the studio, which was very expensive, because Kiss in 1982 was not using cheap studios. They were using the top studios. They ripped out a wall to make the room big enough to get the sound. When you listen to Stax recordings, when you listen to those old Sam and Dave, your Otis writing tracks, you know what the reverb is?

[02:12:31:18 - 02:12:32:16]
 It's their bathroom.

[02:12:34:04 - 02:12:42:00]
 It is a speaker in the bathroom with a microphone and you could adjust the level of reverb by getting the microphone closer to the speaker

[02:12:43:16 - 02:13:19:16]
 or by using it as a separate ghost trap. You have a lot of tracks back then, so you didn't wanna give a track to the reverb. So they mixed it, played it through a speaker in the bathroom and rerecorded it with the sound of you being in the shower, basically. And that was the reverb. And so we have this sequence of, here we are back in Memphis, the late 60s, early 70s, trying to get reverb, and we did it by literally playing it out, rerecording it. Everyone thinks all those soul singers had raspy voices. They didn't. They were always sort of red lining the tube branch, as far as it's actually a bit of distortion. And now we try to mimic them.

[02:13:20:29 - 02:13:53:08]
 And so all these sort of sequential sort of ideas are coming along, trying to get distortion at super loud levels, putting it into pedals so you can have it quieter, so on and so forth to the point. Honestly, what do we want? We don't want the fucking drill. We care about the hole. We want the sound. So whatever gets you the sound that inspires you to make the music, I'm okay with it. I guess I'm a purist. I mean, well, then I wouldn't use pedals to begin with. So I guess I'm sort of a hybrid purist also. I don't see bringing a laptop to a gig. I don't think I could ever do that. Inner ear monitors.

[02:13:54:08 - 02:14:24:00]
 But you could bring a neural quad cortex or there's-- Oh, yeah, yeah, I know. Understood. They just, actually, that thing has four processors that's stronger than the computers were at the time. Right, right. It is a computer. You bring up a good point. I'm not so much into multi-effects pedals, but they are having their heyday right now. I have a quad cortex. I have a helix. I have a camper and they're all still in the box. I haven't yet had the time yet to take them out.

[02:14:25:03 - 02:15:05:13]
 But I do just, I love laying out the different pedals. And I know on the multi-effects units, all you have to do is change them around. It's probably a lot simpler than physically doing it and unplugging it. You don't have to choose. You can be in love with the process. That's the person who loves the drill. You can just want the result. That's the person who wants the hole. Or you want both. You love both. At a different time, today I want to take my time doing this. Uli Toyful tells me that his fret jobs are taking longer and longer, not because they're getting better, but because he's at the point in life where he likes to put on an audio book and take a whole day to do his frets. Because that's just the way he wants to live.

[02:15:06:20 - 02:15:09:11]
 And that's the opposite of the P bass going to $5.

[02:15:11:03 - 02:15:19:18]
 So the other trajectory is making fewer and fewer guitars and let's say conceptually, you can end up making one million guitar per year.

[02:15:21:23 - 02:15:45:05]
 And I don't know anyone who's making one guitar at a million dollars per year, but that is a different trajectory to say, can I create the ultimate expression that took me a year to do and would that be possible? I think actually, I don't know that it's a problem to do that. I don't know that, I think we're happy that Michelangelo did the Sistine Chapel.

[02:15:46:13 - 02:15:53:00]
 And if somebody could do something that was legitimately valuable, not bullshit, legitimately valuable, it took me a year to realize,

[02:15:54:10 - 02:15:59:16]
 and someone else saw the value in it and wanted to buy that, I don't criticize either of them.

[02:16:01:00 - 02:16:59:14]
 It's probably hard to do that, it's really hard to make. Cedar Creek Custom Case Shop is your premier fretted instrument custom case maker. And we invite you to create a musical instrument case unlike any other, one that's unique to you. Ever Cedar Creek Custom Case is hand built by highly sealed craftspeople using only select woods, Providence Forge hardware, and premium instrument-friendly materials. At Cedar Creek Custom Case Shop, we're dedicated to helping you design the case of your dreams. Find out more at cedarcreecases.com. Make money doing that, but it's a different possibility. So we're talking about a value exchange here. And there are people, I had this conversation years ago at a guitar shop in Northern Germany, I'll leave it at that, where we brought in the boutique guitar showcase in our first European year, and we were in this high-end room where the guy had a whole night, just kept telling me why you don't need anything but a Gibson, like, "Why are you our host? "What's going on?" And he kept on trying to create arguments for me to prove it over and over again. And by the end of the night, he says,

[02:17:00:22 - 02:17:08:27]
 "Jamie, here's the nail in the coffin." Said, "If these weren't the best guitars in the world, "they wouldn't have sold so many."

[02:17:10:11 - 02:17:16:22]
 "Okay." And I said, "Fair enough. "I accept your logic and your rationale.

[02:17:18:03 - 02:17:22:00]
 "So by this, we can extrapolate "that the greatest achievement in gastronomy "is the McDonald's hammer."

[02:17:24:13 - 02:17:29:09]
 Yes, that falls in line with that logic. Yeah, he went, "Oh."

[02:17:30:10 - 02:17:46:01]
 (Both Laughing) Check the point, check the minute. No, and I don't begrudge McDonald's. Right? Eat McDonald's. Eat McDonald's. But some of us crave an experience where we go somewhere.

[02:17:47:26 - 02:18:11:22]
 They put the plate in front of you and you breathe deeper. And it changes your heart rate. That's my pedula. Something happens. That's my pedula experience. You take the bite and you're not trying to. We're in a conversation, but you close your eyes. You're overwhelmed. Yes. The experience. Yes. That matters to me. Yes, to myself as well. I like the finer things. The older I get.

[02:18:13:18 - 02:18:16:15]
 And I don't know why that is. Maybe I'm feeling my mortality.

[02:18:18:03 - 02:19:00:22]
 I mean, I'm not 90. I'm 58. But I just like the finer things in life, especially when it comes to musical instruments and having a room that's full of beautiful artwork of Rembrandts and Van Goghs and Michelangelo's, that's what they are to me. And I can sit and I can play with them. I truly do appreciate it calling Maric and saying, "I have an idea." And he's like, "Let's go. Let's do this." The first piece he built for me has each string can play through a different pedal. "Sure, why not?" He said to me. And we spent the year just discussing the build.

[02:19:02:22 - 02:19:08:05]
 That's exciting. That's exciting. When everything arrives, it's beautiful.

[02:19:09:22 - 02:19:23:18]
 He brought up the name of a build earlier, a luthier earlier. And yes, his basses are absolutely fantastic and I have four of them.

[02:19:24:28 - 02:19:28:09]
 And I know what they cost and they're worth what they cost.

[02:19:29:14 - 02:19:45:26]
 But the resale value is embarrassingly low. I see what the asking price is on Reverb and I see how long they sit on Reverb or Craigslist. Name it. Is that a problem? Say hello here. Because he doesn't have a global reputation.

[02:19:46:27 - 02:19:47:18]
 It sucks.

[02:19:48:19 - 02:20:00:26]
 It sucks that-- So anyone who listens to this, apparently there's well-priced occurs on Reverb and you might wanna check one out because they are great basses. But you-- But how do you get that message across? I'm in sales and marketing forever. That's the branding.

[02:20:01:28 - 02:20:49:25]
 People, I have luthiers who ask about being a part of the particular showcase and if they meet the criteria and I tell them, sometimes they're like, "Oof, I can't afford to do that to sell this instrument." I said, "Well, you shouldn't do it to sell this instrument. This is a branding exercise." Said, "My people who send guitars on tour with us, they're not looking to sell an instrument. They have a lead time of one to four years typically. Their problem is people contact them and say, "Where can I play your instrument?" And typically the answer is, "Pfft, nowhere. We're sold out. Well, can I come and try one with you? I don't own one." Right. You can't go to Maruk and play a strata bass. He doesn't have one. Because he's sold out. And so the Butti Guitar Showcase is an opportunity for someone to get that one guitar

[02:20:50:26 - 02:21:05:27]
 into the hands of thousands of people. First time I was ever-- Okay, branding exercise. First time I was ever to play a torsal. Was at the Butti Guitar Showcase a couple of years ago at Manheim. Yep. Otherwise, where would I be able to go to try one? Right.

[02:21:06:28 - 02:21:29:25]
 And because the price of that tachier bass was so insanely inexpensive, I bought my first bebop and I fell in love with it. And since then, I've become friendly with Sander and I've had to make me three. I mean, they're killer instruments. But when I see the resale value, it's depressing.

[02:21:32:05 - 02:21:40:28]
 It's something that someone can pay attention to. Now, someone else will see that as a market opportunity. So we were just in Bologna and there was a retailer there from Krakow

[02:21:42:01 - 02:21:50:04]
 who has a very interesting store. I'll name him even. Very fine guitars. And there are some guitar brands that won't yet sell him the guitars.

[02:21:51:19 - 02:22:40:01]
 And right now, the Japanese Yen is solo. He's just buying them used from Japan as a great opportunity. And he's getting all these great high-end secondhand instruments from a number of brands that he wants and he's making it happen. And so, there will be someone who recognizes, oh, these tachiers are really amazing instruments and they're a great deal and I'm gonna buy them up and I'm gonna resell them in a marketplace who knows what they're worth. Yeah. And good for them. I really believe in open free markets, but it is supply and demand and it is important to pay attention to it. So you can pay attention to it as a collector, you can pay attention to it as a retailer. Rudy Pensa managed the high-end Arstotk market because if there was an available D'Angelico or DiQuisto on the marketplace, he made sure it was not out there too cheap. He'd buy it immediately and sell for the right price. Right. Right?

[02:22:41:02 - 02:23:27:11]
 (Laughs) Because it affected the value of his. And someone like an Uli Toyful is extremely conscious of what the used value is. So, Uli watches the used prices and he makes sure he doesn't do anything that would devalue the instruments in the marketplace. Yes. You know, making minor adjustments, making evolutions of the guitar over many, many years, making improvements, but never making a press release because that might actually make someone think that the older version was not as good. It's funny you say that I got turned on by Strati because I saw Marik, and I don't know if Marik likes me, posting pictures of it. It was his 11th bass he ever made. Yeah. And it was on Reverb for $1,100 and someone had tied a rope, almost like a boat,

[02:23:28:16 - 02:23:51:14]
 like a big thick knotted rope to it to hang it on the wall. Yes. Like a piece of art. And then it was $1,000. And then he took the piece of rope off and he put it back on sale, and I was gonna buy it. And he put it back on sale for $1,500, like two days later, and I bought it. Yes. And that's what turned me on to going to his website

[02:23:52:20 - 02:24:12:28]
 and saying, "Holy shit, look what this guy builds today. Look at these symphony basses." The guy literally made a metaphorical image of giving you enough rope to hang yourself. Ah, well done. And then two days later. Touche. Well done. That's fantastic. Yeah. And two days later, he took it off. That guy's still growing in one of his middies. Yeah. Yep.

[02:24:14:03 - 02:24:43:17]
 But I like going on there, going on Reverb and finding these instruments and then going to the website of the builder and seeing what they're actually making today also. And what is the price difference between what's being charged? Of course, used. And new. And if it's not that much different, I'd rather buy a new one reach out to the builder. A, to make a relationship. B, to build something to my specs.

[02:24:44:18 - 02:25:08:02]
 Because for $400 or $500 difference, I don't want to buy someone else's. When I can have it built to my specifications. And it's a new friend to have in the industry. I just really like, not all. Because we have some luthies that are at my ass. They're assholes with yours too? Yes. Yes. Just like that. Everyone's got their shared assholes.

[02:25:09:04 - 02:25:37:29]
 But I just happen to get along very well with Muthias. Because I really appreciate people who create-- I'm a huge Project Runway fan. Because Tim Gunn gives someone $100. And they go out and they buy a piece of fabric. And they make a stunning dress or a suit out of it. A piece of cloth. Top chef where they say there's mustard, peanut butter, a half a roasted chicken, and an olive.

[02:25:39:04 - 02:25:44:22]
 Make me something. There's this beautiful meal in front. I love the creative mind.

[02:25:46:00 - 02:26:01:16]
 There's something about it that's sexy. And it just turns me on. I don't have that creative mind. I don't have hands that-- or the mind, the capacity to build. Luckily, I can play.

[02:26:03:08 - 02:26:04:26]
 And that's a creativity onto its own.

[02:26:06:00 - 02:26:09:19]
 Maybe that's why I appreciate the artist so much.

[02:26:11:14 - 02:26:39:16]
 And talking to the artist and finding out the geographical location that they live in, does that inspire you? That's one of the things. Why I'm in Italy for 11 days instead of just the three days in the show. I want to sit with Bruno, Bocci, and tell me, why does Tuscany psych you? What does it do to you that is translated into your guitar? Or when I go to Doga, what is it about Tuscany, about Venice?

[02:26:41:23 - 02:26:44:20]
 Or is there anything about Venice? Can you do the same thing in China?

[02:26:45:22 - 02:26:49:25]
 Yeah, sometimes they don't know. I asked this question once to--

[02:26:51:08 - 02:27:07:19]
 I don't think it really makes basis. But Julian Agree, he's made a couple of basis, G&G guitars. And Julio, when I asked him, what did he become aware of the fact that you were living in a very culturally rich, beautiful architecture and art work, food everywhere?

[02:27:08:26 - 02:27:12:15]
 And he said, Jamie, the fish is unaware of the water.

[02:27:14:07 - 02:27:31:15]
 It was just life to him. And so I don't know that Bruno would necessarily know what Tuscany is to him. I mean, he loves Tuscany. Don't get me wrong. He's a huge fan of it. But I will tell you the first time that he came to NAMM,

[02:27:32:18 - 02:27:34:04]
 I brought him to the boutique guitar showcase.

[02:27:35:07 - 02:27:39:11]
 And he came to visit me before we set up. So we both came in early.

[02:27:40:14 - 02:27:55:22]
 And he came to our house, the rental house there, and had been in Los Angeles. And he was so excited to go into Los Angeles for the first time. And then the day he came to me looking completely exhausted and just done. It's like, Bruno, how was your day? He's like, Jamie.

[02:27:58:17 - 02:28:00:16]
 There is nothing beautiful here.

[02:28:02:03 - 02:28:06:25]
 He brings a suitcase of Italian food with him. Oh, now he does. Yes. He didn't know what to do with the first year.

[02:28:08:00 - 02:28:45:22]
 I couldn't believe it. I said, how do you get the sauce through? He says, I haven't set up before, so it's there waiting for me. And he brings a suitcase full of pasta and everything and the spices that he needs. And he gets an Airbnb. He said, I would tell. So he has a kitchen there. Yeah, same thing. So he came to our Airbnb. We get one out at Newport every year. And so that's exactly it. That's dedication to the craft. Well, we do the same thing. We have a kitchen and we have a rooftop terrace because I can't eat at TGI Friday's or-- And this-- Again, we're Denny's Nanime. Just moved out of New York City. I sublet my Brooklyn place.

[02:28:47:14 - 02:29:13:02]
 Due to a short break in the relationship, I'm stuck with 300 bases and X amount of amplifiers and fridges and Ampeg fridges and three 100 pound Labrador Retrievers, Swaim, and my partner and I had split for a short period of time. And she was going to stay at the house. It was her house.

[02:29:14:09 - 02:29:43:04]
 And where am I going to put all this? What am I going to do? And so my corporate office, it was after COVID. It was 6,000 square feet when I was still in corporate America. So I have a place to put everything. And that's when you called me. And I was under the misunderstanding that I thought you wanted to do a tour of the collection. And everything was in cases in my office right at that time. I also got called by a base publication.

[02:29:45:00 - 02:29:47:27]
 They want to do a video shoot of the collection.

[02:29:48:28 - 02:30:01:25]
 This timing sucks for that. And then eventually-- So I bought a house 90 minutes from New York City that is big enough to house my entire collection on the first floor.

[02:30:02:26 - 02:30:07:19]
 And that has, I was telling, 5,000 acres in the back to go hiking with my dogs.

[02:30:08:21 - 02:30:14:26]
 And this is now at my age, my home.

[02:30:17:04 - 02:30:26:16]
 I was a wanderer for so many years and so hard to have some gear here and some gear here and some gear here. And now it's all in one place.

[02:30:27:28 - 02:31:17:12]
 And I'm thrilled about that. And I'm going to keep on collecting as long as I can. Great. David, thank you. Jamie, thank you. This is really an honor for me. I'm a big fan of the Boutique Guitar Showcase. I didn't know what the Boutique Guitar Showcase was five or six years ago until I learned. And speaking on behalf of the base upfront admins and base players worldwide, we fucking love the Boutique Guitar Showcase. You know that's where we all hang out. Where are you guys right now? Where do you think I am right now? I'm over by Bacci. I'm over by Stradi. I'm at the Boutique Guitar Showcase.

[02:31:18:24 - 02:31:33:08]
 And thank you for giving us that spot as geeks to go. And a great website also. By the way, let me compliment you on your website. The videos on there, like we were talking about recently,

[02:31:35:02 - 02:31:40:19]
 a guitar that's used for a half hour. And it's a piece of art for the other 23 and a half hours.

[02:31:41:19 - 02:32:08:07]
 That was a great conversation. So thank you for what you do for the base guitar community as well. Well, thank you. Thanks, David. Thanks for the touch. (End Playback) And scene. You've been listening to Life from Springs Attached. If today's conversation meant something to you, consider passing it on. These stories find their place in the people who share them. A new episode comes out every Friday, right here, wherever you're listening.

[02:32:09:19 - 02:32:16:05]
 I'm Jamie Gale. Thanks for listening to Life from Springs Attached. (Music Playing)